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Ukraine: Daily Update

Discussions regarding wars around the globe
Knuckle
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby Knuckle » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:37 pm

That is such an excellent point. Why, if we (NATO, UN, EU) claim to interfere for humanitarian reasons, do we only seem to focus on those with some resource or strategic location and not many others. Ukraine does fit both of these requirements though, and likely answers the question if we use the obvious premiss. Then the motives really become obvious when we close deals in front of cameras to blatantly show our nemesis who has the reigns.

We assume that with all our conniving , that the enemy is weaker or he would have responded by now, while not considering that he has mastered the art of conniving long ago and is likely far more subtle than we are, which will unite many others to his cause while we stare him down with our arrogance.....
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Knuckle
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby Knuckle » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:29 pm

04 Jun Morning

- RT News: US praises Ukraine restraint https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvfqclN-_KA

- RT News: Ukraine training more civilians to do battle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGxVO6gF_fs
note the lack of drill to even stand at attention during this ceremony.

- CNN: US admitting further backing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c2sn9YFDGg
(now imagine the support that they don't mention as it couldn't be justified)

- France News: show refugees from Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkhf1D4l-t0

- India News: India moves 1,000 students to Kiev after east attacks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRbpkn8r6Mc

- ABC News: a prime example of exaggerated one-sided news https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAf_JNd08Ew
note how they use random footage of violence, then an red map(representing blood of course) of supposedly strong strategic positions pro-Russian forces. Shows US training Allies, and pathetic rebel check points. Watch and then rewatch this, noting tactics used to present justification to further killings in the east. And then demanding Putin to further retreat... to where? He is well within his own border. And now ask yourself where are the talks to instead work out their differences as promised before the elections ?

I again wish to point out that all news presented above is from the west prospective only. The few pro-Russian videos presented seem to come thru alternate non-official sources now and are then snapped up by our news media. They seem to be mostly cell phone camera quality only. You can tell the difference by going back to links posted before the election to see the overall difference.
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prom
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby prom » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:53 pm

Knuckle wrote:That is such an excellent point. Why, if we (NATO, UN, EU) claim to interfere for humanitarian reasons, do we only seem to focus on those with some resource or strategic location and not many others. Ukraine does fit both of these requirements though, and likely answers the question if we use the obvious premiss. Then the motives really become obvious when we close deals in front of cameras to blatantly show our nemesis who has the reigns.



What about the UN intervention in Somalia in 1993 with the US as a main contributor. What goodies are in there? What resources does Afganistan have? Some rumors about mineral resources. I don't see any western mining companies rushing to open mines there. I do see that now afghan girls can go to school and millions of dollars put into building infrastructure.
And what about so many russian and chinese vetoes in UN council against UN intervention in SUdan and Syria.
Please don't forget there is absolutely no western military presence in Ukraine (compare that to all the military russia has put in the east) , no military intervention in Syria.
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prom
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby prom » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:22 pm

Antsy wrote:A quick list of current world conflicts and fatalities associated with them:

I can't help but wonder why the last conflict with so little loss of life is warranting so much attention in contrast to so many others? Is it that it's just the most recent? Or is it that the Ukrainians have the same skin colour as us? It seems to me that there are conflicts that deserve to be put under the magnifying glass much more than Ukraine.



I think most of those conflicts got their fair share of publicity at their time. Why not anymore and why less than Ukraine? Not sure but I have some theories:

Ukriane is a fresh and ongoing conflict. I think public gets bored at some point and they need fresh entertainment. After all media is a business and they need to make money. The make money by keeping their clients informed/entertained but they need to respond to market requests.

Ukraine has bigger implications than the others, both military and economically. It involves 2 of the biggest military blocks with nuclear capabilities that used to be involved in what it was called the Cold War not too long ago.

There might be some subtle, yet very serious nuclear implications in long term. From an older post:

prom wrote:
Goldie wrote:"In 1994, Ukraine, and the Russian Federation, and the United States and the United Kingdom entered into an agreement to remove former Soviet nuclear weapons from Ukraine.

Ukraine's actions were not without significant commitments, however, by the other signatories. Russia, the U.S. and the UK pledged in part "to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine" and "reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine."

Russia's policies and actions toward Ukraine's Crimea region demonstrate complete disregard for this critically important memorandum and international law""

References:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/16/opinion/h ... index.html


From the same article:

<<Putin has sent a clear message to the more than 25 non-nuclear states possessing the technical capabilities to join the nuclear weapons club that the stick of nuclear arms and not the carrot of international law is what guarantees national security.>>

and on the same note from this article:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... n/6629775/

<<The Ukraine crisis carries nuclear lessons for the rest of the world. For states pursuing nuclear capability, such as Iran, the message is to press on. For states with rudimentary nuclear capability, such as North Korea, the lesson is to build up. For those with healthy arsenals, India and Pakistan, it is never disarm. For states that could quickly achieve nuclear status if they wanted to, say Japan, the message is to give nuclear weapons serious consideration.>>

Seems to me like this crisis has deeper implications than any other crisis that happened in the recent history.
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prom
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby prom » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Knuckle wrote:Seems that you simply call facts theory and tag it a conspiracy rhetoric.

- 9/11 set so many records such as only steel structures to fall into own footprint(without supposedly being demo'd) in mans history, not once but 3 times in one day. With molten metal forming a pool and taking weeks to cool (only thermite could do that), and 1,700 architects calling BS, it's just a conspiracy theory!


I can't state an opinion on that as I'm not a structural engineer. And this is not the thread to discuss this , moon landing, HAARPS etc


Knuckle wrote:- With over 500,000 children alone dead in Iraq from US intervention (while they mourn their 3,500 US soldiers), it is hard to imagine they are grateful for American occupation.


I'm not going to ask what's the source of those numbers, I think I have an idea now, but I'm curious if there are any statistics on how many of those children were killed by US troops and how many were killed as a result of sectarian violence, you know , the old shia vs sunny hating and killing each other? Ohh but wait, it's none of their fault. The two otherwise peaceful groups were stirred and instigated by CIA to commit all those atrocities. Or, maybe they didn't even do that, it was all US troops in disguise.


Knuckle wrote:Ukraine obviously had it's issues , but the riot was backed and staged and the US doesn't even deny the authenticity of the recorded phone calls. They just act as if they never existed. Those calls alone prove that the US was behind the riots, yet you keep ignoring them too.


Please explain how would Victoria Nuland talking to the US ambassador in Ukraine and stating the US preference for the leader of the provisional government prove that US and EU provoked the demonstrations in Kiev.

Knuckle wrote: It took lots of money and coercion to provoke the people of the west to rise up and riot. There were lots of promises made to bad people to instigate this. They capitalized on sore points that the west wouldn't prosper now the PM went with Russia instead.


And you know all that because you saw it on youtube

Knuckle wrote: The videos of youth's yelling "zeig heil" shows who was behind the violence at the start. Your refusal to even consider that we are backing the fascists is testimony in your narrow minded approach that I am on the wrong side when I use fact over fiction throughout this whole thread. My whole and only motive is to make others aware that we being lied to. Some day it may be your or my child or grandchild yelling "Zeig Heil" because we didn't say no this!
[/quote]


And I already told you what kind of people were those. You don't seem to get my points no matter what I'm saying. And your reply to that post was lame at least. In order to a brand a whole country as fascist I need to see tens of thousands of people yelling Zeig Heil or whatever, not just a bunch of stupid kids who had no mind of their own or a bunch of soccer fan scumbags. And we're not there yet.

But I will give you that: the extremism in europe is on the rise and proof to that is the result of the european parliament elections:

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html

I see this to be a sign of times. Every x number years we go through the same pattern. We rise up from the ashes of a major conflict to rebuild and witness a technological and social revolution. Then a period of prosperity follows. The cycle ends with a period of "mania" type , all sort of bubbles occur, everybody gets greedy and the gap between the elites and regular people widens. Then the collapse comes, people go into the opposite mood and societies become polarized, extremism grows and conflicts start. And than it starts again. Nothing that the world hasn't seen before and not much we can do about it.
Last edited by prom on Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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prom
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby prom » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:13 pm

Knuckle wrote:
- Gaddafi was branded a tyrant by the US, yet here's some facts about Libya you likely don't want to know:

1. There was no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

2. There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

3. Home considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi’s father has died while him, his wife and his mother are still living in a tent.

4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.

6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and
livestock to kick- start their farms – all for free.

7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it –
not only free but they get US$2, 300/mth accommodation and car allowance.

8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price.

9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0. 14 per liter.

10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – now frozen globally.

11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or
she is employed until employment is found.

12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US $5 ,000

14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15

15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree

16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily
available throughout the desert country.



And again you have a trusted source for all this information. Don't bother, I don't even want to know. Anyways, each story has multiple sides and you painted the one that suites your position. Even though I'm no expert in Libyan affairs let me give you another one.

Gaddafi might have done all of the above but he was also a rich man with family assests in excess of 1.5 billions.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 43501.html

But, he was nice man, like you pointed above, and shared some of Libya's wealth with the happy Libyan people.
He was also responsible for the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing, better known as the Lockerbie bombing with 259 innocent people dead. Yeah I know, you'll say that there is strong evidence that it wasn't the Libyan intelligence officer Abdelbaset al-Megrahi who planted the bomb but the CIA.
He also came to power through a coup, but hey, it wasn't a coup if CIA wasn't involved. Let's call it a revolution.

Now, in order to do all those great things above he had to turn Libya towards socialism (more like communism) :

from wiki page on Gaddafi

<<<introduced sharia as the basis for the legal system and nationalized the oil industry, using the increased revenues to bolster the military, implement social programs and fund revolutionary militants across the world.>>>

<<< In March 1978, the government issued guidelines for housing redistribution, attempting to ensure that every adult Libyan owned his own home and was not enslaved to paying rent. Most families were banned from owning more than one house, while former rental properties were seized and sold to the tenants at a heavily subsidized price.[152] In September, Gaddafi called for the People's Committees to eliminate the "bureaucracy of the public sector" and the "dictatorship of the private sector"; the People's Committees took control of several hundred companies, converting them into worker cooperatives run by elected representatives.[153]

On 2 March 1979, the GPC (General People's Congress) announced the separation of government and revolution, the latter represented by new Revolutionary Committees, who operated in tandem with the People's Committees in schools, universities, unions, the police force and the military.[154] Dominated by revolutionary zealots, the Revolutionary Committees were led by Mohammad Maghgoub and a Central Coordinating Office, and met with Gaddafi annually.[154] Publishing a weekly magazine The Green March (al-Zahf al-Akhdar), in October 1980 they took control of the press. Responsible for perpetuating revolutionary fervour, they performed ideological surveillance, later adopting a significant security role, making arrests and putting people on trial according to the "law of the revolution" (qanun al-thawra).[154] With no legal code or safeguards, the administration of revolutionary justice was largely arbitrary and resulted in widespread abuses and the suppression of civil liberties: the "Green Terror."[155]

In 1979, the committees began redistribution of land in the Jefara plain, continuing through 1981.[156] In May 1980, measures to redistribute and equalize wealth were implemented; anyone with over 1000 dinar in his bank account saw that extra money expropriated.[157] The following year, the GPC announced that the government would take control of all import, export and distribution functions, with state supermarkets replacing privately owned businesses; this led to a decline in the availability of consumer goods and the development of a thriving black market.[158]>>>

<<<A cult of personality devoted to Gaddafi existed in Libya.[331] His face appeared on a wide variety of items, including postage stamps, watches, and school satchels. Quotations from The Green Book appeared on a wide variety of places, from street walls to airports and pens, and were put to pop music for public release. Gaddafi claimed that he disliked this personality cult, but that he tolerated it because Libya's people adored him.[331] Biographers Blundy and Lycett believed that he was "a populist at heart."[331] Throughout Libya, crowds of supporters would turn up to public events at which he appeared; described as "spontaneous demonstrations" by the government, there are recorded instances of groups being coerced or paid to attend.[332] He was typically late to public events, and would sometimes not show up at all>>>> Cult of personality is one of very easy signs to spot a dictator.

But hey, as long as the majority lives happy and knows how to read .... How happy? Well, take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Libya


Quote: "The Revolutionary Committees had been accused of resembling similar systems in totalitarian countries; reportedly, 10 to 20 percent of Libyans worked in surveillance for these committees, with surveillance taking place in government, in factories, and in the education sector."

Hmm, wait a minute, isn't the fact that the US government is spying on us one of the reasons you hate them so much? I see a contradiction here.

Now I think we should lobby our MP's to implement his great ideas here, maybe we won't have to pay our electricity bill anymore and have all the goodies that the libyans used to have. All of you who own real estate for investment purposes beware.


Last but not least, you mentioning all those good thing the dictator did for his people brought back some childhood memories, some of them not very happy. Do you know that Ceausescu, the romanian dictator, is still credited by some idiots in Romania with eradicating illiteracy , and unemployment, praised for the industrialization of the country, completion of many infrastructure projects, paying Romania's foreign debt in full, free education and medical system and more. Did he do all that? one could say he did. He couldn't match Gaddafi, although I'm sure that it was a fierce competition - make your own people happy.

This is one side of the story so here is the other one.
Growing up as a child in communist Romania I remember my parents waking us up before sunrise so we can all go line up in front of the grocery store to buy some decent meat or basic staple food like sugar, flour oil. The supplies weren't enough for everybody so it would go quite fast. Some were saying we were lucky in a way, as in other parts of the country they had food cards but I'm not sure about that. I remember the usual stampedes when the doors opened a few hours later and everybody was desperate to get in, the arguments between people about their place in line, the fights. Nobody was complaining about the government though. The terror was big, the brain washing too efficient. If you said anything, it was big chance that someone in the crowd would reveal himself to be from "Securitatea statului" and asked you to go with him. Or somebody would have showed up to your door later. In any case there was a big chance that nobody would ever hear from you. Best case scenario, you got a good beating and sent to reeducation camp.

I also remember doing my homework and reading at a candle light. Not because of some technical difficulties with the power network. Some say it was to save money, some say it was just to remind us what it could happen if we don't comply. Hot water- a few hours in the evening a few in the morning. And everybody was taking showers around those times. You were lucky if you lived on the lower floors. Heat - just enough to keep you from freezing. Both heat and hot water were generated in big power plants and than distributed to apartments buildings through a system of underground pipes. Very easy to control large populations.

I remember also as a student in secondary school spending a few weeks a year doing farm work. One year I had a cast on my broken arm but I still had to go. Some will say that a bit of farm work never killed everybody but than how come that the communist were praising themselves with developing romanian agriculture through mechanization and collectivization. Why did they need teachers, students and conscripts to help? And I remember all the brain washing in school, where we had to study the teachings of the great leader and we had to learn and sing songs about him, going on a big stadium and rehearse for a big show in his honor when he was visiting. I remember going into a bookstore trying to find a book worth reading and couldn't. I remember opening the TV and seeing Ceausescu telling us how we are going to build the bright future of communism , and how we need to keep fighting against capitalism and imperialists. Gosh, how much I was hoping that we'll lose the fight and the imperialists will come and conquer us. I must have prayed very hard , it happened eventually :) . There's much on TV either, one channel, 2 hours a day , a few more during the weekend. The 5 minutes of cartoons on the weekend were very much appreciated and waited for. Although I wasn't always lucky and instead of Walt Disney there were some Russian cartoons. I never liked those ones, I still wonder why. I suppose there were some goods thing about living in those times. Like the fact that because we didn't have to many options for entertainment we had t spend lots of times outside running and playing soccer and use our imagination to find new ways to spend our time. And another one could be that it was a different life experience and that I learned from it to see and appreciate things differently. There are many other things to talk about but I think you got the idea.

The question is, which side of the story is true? And who is the open minded, who is being manipulated and who tries to manipulate others?
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prom
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby prom » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:29 pm

Knuckle wrote:And then demanding Putin to further retreat... to where? He is well within his own border. [/i]



you're wrong again, remember Crimea? Russia recently invading it and annexing it? no matter what you say the fact is that Crimea was part of Ukraine just a few weeks ago. So, based on this fact they are demanding Putin to retreat.
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Knuckle
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby Knuckle » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:44 am

We at least likely both agree that Russia isn't going to give up Crimea and so does NATO and the EU. Russia needs access to their fleet in the Black Sea as it is a doorway to trade for Russia. It is likely too that the US will continue to try bring about a war as they seem determined to achieve this goal. We are constantly bombarded with news stating that Russia continues to threaten the Ukraine yet no one ever states the when and wheres of these supposed threats.

As for your data from Wikipedia on Libya, it seems history is always written by the victor. Seems Gaddafi must have been a ferocious leader as it is shown in this following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzJjo6fWQ5s
I've never seen a countries leader cruise through the populace like he does here, waving and shaking hands as they cruise through cities, hundreds cheering him on wherever they see him....yup, they must be doing it in fear!

To lower your guard and presume events are just a cycle that will repeat itself is a cop out and what our leaders expect the majority of the people will do no matter what crap they stir up. This is how come we pay such much in taxes due to our ancestors not saying no either. History tends to repeat itself only if we never learned from our previous mistakes.
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prom
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby prom » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:21 pm

Knuckle wrote:It is likely too that the US will continue to try bring about a war as they seem determined to achieve this goal.


I see Obama administration withdrawing US troops from Irak and Afghanistan and reducing military spending and reducing army size. I don't see any real evidence about US trying to start a war and logic dictates they are in no shape for a major war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/us/po ... .html?_r=0

Knuckle wrote:As for your data from Wikipedia on Libya, it seems history is always written by the victor.



Actually "Wikipedia is written collaboratively by largely anonymous Internet volunteers who write without pay. Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles, except in limited cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism. Users can contribute anonymously, under a pseudonym, or, if they choose to, with their real identity.

The fundamental principles by which Wikipedia operates are the five pillars."
Fifth pillar says: "Neutral point of view" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... nt_of_view

If you don't agree to what the page on libya says and you have some credible sources for your information, you can edit it.

At least I posted my source. I would have expected that you would have checked the Wikipedi "About" page before questioning it. Wikipedia is not youtube.

Knuckle wrote:Seems Gaddafi must have been a ferocious leader as it is shown in this following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzJjo6fWQ5s
I've never seen a countries leader cruise through the populace like he does here, waving and shaking hands as they cruise through cities, hundreds cheering him on wherever they see him....yup, they must be doing it in fear!


So you don't believe US government propaganda but you believe Libyan government propaganda just because they oppose US. That doesn't make much sense to me. Unfortunately I have to say that you keep on disappointing me.
Anyways if that is how he lived, this is how he died:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aDsjvTFRQw

I don't think that this how a happy population would treat such a beloved leader.

Knuckle wrote:To lower your guard and presume events are just a cycle that will repeat itself is a cop out and what our leaders expect the majority of the people will do no matter what crap they stir up. This is how come we pay such much in taxes due to our ancestors not saying no either. History tends to repeat itself only if we never learned from our previous mistakes.


My bad on this one. I didn't mean to say we shouldn't do anything, I meant to say there isn't much we can do to change how the universe work, the cyclicity of life in general. We can't change these social cycles just as we can't change the seasons cycle, or solar cycles or the earth cooling and warming cycles. Unfortunately, instead of acknowledging and assuming their problems and try to fix them, people will go to extreme during those times. And communism, fascism, nationalism are some of those extremes.

If you decide to do something about it I might join you if I agree with your ideas but do it while you still can. On the other side of the wall it became very dangerous to oppose the government:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/russia-f ... 2014-03-03
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Knuckle
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Re: Ukraine: Daily Update

Postby Knuckle » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:46 pm

05 Jun Afternoon

- RT News: more People flee as Kiev military increases attacks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y37DlL3N5lQ

- RT News: French interview with Putin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gvbS09gN80
1/2 hr interview of tricky questions. Great way to see how cautious and diplomatic Putin is and how he thinks

- CNN: Obama threatening Russia again at G7 summit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l95OXmMAq8I
you might note that he says Putin is to tell the rebels to quit their attacks but does not mention that the west should also do so in any way as they kill so many civilians in the east

- Prada TV: a psycho-analysis of propaganda and it's effects on Ukrainian people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv8QOLWFWOE
something to watch and ponder over as he explains that many normal people join the fight to live out fantasies of violent acts legally thru war

- BBC News: they interview Rebel leader who admits that Russian volunteers join them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4knTh0A7sE

- Prada TV: shows US backs civil war elections in Ukraine but deny those in Syria https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdDfVHE8vy8

- PBS News: mentions unity wanes in Europe against Russia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETOfNIPaAuI
the bad thing is they suggest that the US should take the lead if the EU doesn't want to back them with further sanctions and support. While Russia does nothing(though they claim otherwise), they suggest the US needs to use NATO and build strong defenses in Ukraine and then watch because Russia will eventually respond....dah! No doubt!

- PBS News: Obama to back the Ukraine fully against pro Russian insurgency https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad2_Uw8X9XY
that means they are going to help kill the rebels! All while claiming Russia is intervening...seems PBS is another US propaganda outlet :o WHoWouldaGuessed!
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