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Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Discussions regarding wars around the globe
prom
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:14 am
Location: Calgary
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby prom » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:24 am

Knuckle wrote:
It is I who ask you why you cannot see past your flag waving, to who is the real promoter of this war? If you take a comment that flying over Ukraine airspace will be considered dangerous as an admission of guilt, then something more direct such as a retired US general publicly showing the US's war plan (which seems to be coming true) should be irrefutable evidence to even you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEJ6Aja-UQ


irrefutable or not is unrelated to the matter. And it's about events that happened more than 10 years ago. What is fresh and on the point is this:

A rebel leader for the pro-Russian insurgency fighting against the Ukraine government claims responsibility for the shooting down a plane at about the same time that the Malaysia Flight 17 went down over Ukraine.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian ... lines-jet/

You are absurd to say the least, in your arguments. I will stop here, I will not waste my time posting on this unless there is some relevant information coming up.
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:12 pm

And my point when narrowed down is that the answer to this is not obvious. There are so many variables that one has to consider as to why either side would shoot down this jet. It is more probable that the shooting was intentional, so one has to figure how either side could possibly benefit from this incident. Tell me how Russia or the pro Russians would and I'll gladly add that into my reasoning. But the outcome of this incident is to give them a black eye.

The timing of this event is perfect for the US as usual. It changes public focus from the ISIS uprising and how these terrorist organizations got their footing from US backing. It makes the viewer of this news immediately get back on the US support bandwagon to further intervene into another conflict they too promoted by at least feeding the Ukraine war with financial support and weaponry.

Putin is no savior and neither is Obama. They both have agendas that could at least be toned down if their own people protested against intervention of other countries affairs. Putin has lately made deals with Cuba again to threaten US closer to home. This is obviously to show the US they too can threaten ones home borders but the act is an act of retaliation to their own predicament. I'd bet if the US backed off, so would Russia. Why doesn't the US just let the European countries who need this gas support this war instead? Without the US, they'd likely just pay for this gas instead as it would be far cheaper than war. What does the US get out of this endevour other than profit from the gas sales which only go into a select few of the American peoples pockets?

No answers are forthcoming to any of these questions I present, just comments that I'm off topic. Our governments are supporting and promoting the escalations of war and continually telling us we are offering aid, not bullets. Russia's tactics seem to have been more subtle, but are just as wrong. They hand out lethal weapons to to peaceful folk at the time(presently the Ukrainians back when they were Russia's friendly neighbours) and must know by now that sooner or later, these same weapons will get used. This tactic was perfected during the Vietnam war and still works today.

To stay on topic, the present question is what will/should occur from the downing of this civilian aircraft? The only foreseeable option that could change due to this event is if the UN or US is to move onto Ukraine soil. There is no benefit that I can see regarding Russia or the pro Russians in this matter. The area in question is along Russia's border and tensions are sure to rise if UN occupation occurs.... a given! Think of how Russia would act to this threat. Most likely they would accelerate their new base in Cuba so as to divide and thus weaken US forces somewhat. ("You threaten my doorstep, I threaten yours" mentality) I've tried to continually point out that Russia has done nothing since they claimed Crimea back at the start as a must-have defensive measure only... why force them into further aggressive action?

The response Obama commits is likely measured by the reaction of the American people. He backed down when he lost backing for the invasion of Syria and is likely testing their resolve before committing to this action. I look for the direction that the media pushes during such events and if they mutually seem to be pushing towards a specific path, that is most likely the path the US government wants it's people to accept.
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Jensen
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Location: Grimsby

Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Jensen » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:06 pm

prom you still have not provided evidence that this was done by the Separatists ?. All you have is a lot of different pieces of information which you done put into a conspiracy theory of your own. Conveniently also correlates with the US version and promoted idea of events.

You need to step back and try and see the bigger picture here not just swallow the official version of events. There are several shades of grey you know... :).

Great info and analysis knuckles. Interesting read.
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:41 pm

Just thought I'd list the latest news for those who are following this:

- The blackbox is found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvtxZMhyDcY

- The blame game is ongoing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkhC74W6e8c

- Ukraine refuses to negotiate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hk_fLrxBA


Present News

- Ukraine captured recordings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNxiPGE3I7w

- CNN's Breakdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p5sVQeXaO0

- CNN with John Carry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozrQxHhcOHw (says not pointing fingers as he suggests crash sight is being tampered with)

- Obama speaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFAjIfHiLpQ

Seems Obama simply wants full access to this region during a war... (kind of like how they wanted full access to look for WMD's in Iraq and Gas in Lybia...)


Here is what was going on in Ukraine just before the shooting down of this jet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTjgX5e0ano
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:34 am

Lets see what is being presented in the news lately by the US:

- CNN: Ukraine spy chief states Russia did it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7EHme01LWI


- Obama's speech: states evidence is being removed @ 1:30, (removing bodies to a big fridge to preserve them...duh)@ 2:13 Russia trained and armed them(so much that their hiding and resort to only hit & run tactics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U616lCxYdHU



So let's see what is in the news from Russia:

- Seems Russia has air traffic proof that a Ukraine jet was in vicinity during crash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C-AlR3phsQ
(this fits the drone story which I read witnesses saw and the You Tube link disappeared as I was about to post)

- East Ukraine news: state Russia is passing proof of Ukraine jet on to European agencies for validity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plfcxgllJyg

- Ukraine continues to bomb civilians in the east even with all this attention on them (dated today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_lE_1yBiQ

I often hear on our news that Putin's continually attempting to restore Russia to it's earlier glory. I never hear mention of how he is doing this though other than his moving into Crimea (at the invite of Ukraine's leader at that time and most welcomed it). It seems therefore that Putin is doing nothing but faces constant accusations that he is without any details as to how this is occurring. Does anyone else see moves he is making that require mention as I'm tired of looking?
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:51 pm

I earlier said that reporters in the past used to risk life and limb to get us the real story . Here is a wake up to show how many news reporters have died so far this year doing just that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNqjem3X6o

It gives me an even greater respect for those who are reporting, especially when we an see they are so close to the action.

- RT TV host debates on CNN news over MH 17 crash...which agency do you see confronting this issue as correct ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ9NjU0Cf3k
(the point that the UN ships surrounding Ukraine could easily compare their Aeriel data to either prove or disprove Russia's would likely solve this immediately).
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:35 pm

- CNN: They are finding more debris further out that even show puncture holes from within the cab. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veG7dcmp4_g

- BBC: Village is shelled by unknown. Story is suggestive without finger pointing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdvT0d8vC40

- Here's a good link with technological info on the Bak missile system and it's potential https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB-WmE_ls8U
(could this BAK system be set to fire automatically?)

- CNN: also shows Bak potential with undertones of Russian involvement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRAtWI3WgmA

- RT News:this report was early but check out the type of questions asked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4OfykcvJvg
( that is how news should be presented, asking questions many of us wouldn't think to ask).

- RT News: presents news that BBC recorded but wouldn't present https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdi07qkHgrc
(this one is very interesting stuff as it shows the removal of essential witness testimony)

- RT News: Russia Defense minister points out media finger pointing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRTxKVdV4Jo

What I spent alot of time looking for was western news debunking the Russian Aeriel radar evidence. I can find none on this topic so far. Instead the news is accusing Russia of firing rockets into Ukraine.
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morningcoffee
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby morningcoffee » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:32 pm

I don't understand why the countries who pointed the finger at Russia so very quickly after the incident, can't seem to come up with a single concrete piece of evidence other than you tube videos that someone (?) posted or on social media. Why can't they release their satellite photos of the incident or the records from the air traffic controllers? The pilots of the Air India flight which was 90 seconds behind the Malaysian flight seem to have a different take on the event, They weren't diverted and wouldn't have accepted a position change to take them over the area where the Malaysian flight was sent. Air India's head office seems to have a disagreement with their own pilots who were actually in the area at the time. A prominent US politician wanted Putin to "man up" as she put it, but the same should apply to anyone involved in this incident, whether it be the Russians, the pro-Russian separatists or the Ukrainians themselves. There are far too many unanswered questions and since investigation results can take months, I find it disturbing that so many people just accept whatever story they are fed and make it "their" belief rather than thinking for themselves. Several years ago, a story came out on our local media of woman's body being found on a walkway and the number of people who jumped to the conclusion that this was a murder was scarey. In actual fact, she died of natural causes and was not murdered.
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"It's better to look ahead and prepare than to look back and regret"

Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:38 pm

Good Points, MorningCoffee. I agree fully.

I finally did find a link that tries to ask the question of Russia's Aeriel Radar evidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok

It again shows the usual dance around the real questions. It appears that all US representatives take the same psych course to attempt to confuse the listener with use of words like "obvious" and impressing upon the viewer that theirs is the only "logical conclusion" when it really isn't very logical . The US representative to the media (which seems to always be female) presents vague data that is to be taken as valid proof that the situation is under control. Does anyone ever feel satisfied that they were fully informed after watching one of these media question periods? It always seems to me that nothing gets answered with anything real or even viable, and when directly confronted, they simply answer "I'll get back to you on that" which we never know if they did or not.

She suggests that an investigation should start on a person's statement that they will shoot down any jet overhead (hearsay evidence) and say that it points in the direction of pro Russian, and without further conclusive evidence, this must be the obvious conclusion. No mention to the fact that this shortened statement was made about "those jets that continually bomb their cities will be shot down if they fly over their area". If one watches the whole interview, this is obvious. Instead, the comment was reduced to suit the event and now is being presented as if it is "real, undeniable" evidence. Just the act of manipulating this comment should therefore be considered "evidence tampering", which it will not as it is only "hearsay" evidence to begin with. Yet this sort of tactic is now standard procedure in our daily news.
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:51 am

The Alex Jones channel has a lot of good points to present regarding this blame game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXerU4QGf20

I don't usually like listening to Alex as he is often loud and often doing all the talking. Yet they interview air traffic controllers and standard procedures used worldwide. Their mention of witness accounts compared to accumulated evidence is worthy of note.

And here is a part 2 to US media questions for today 25 July and more vague answers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T-ou8bSryI
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