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Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

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Knuckle
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Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:02 am

And now CNN is already accusing Russia for the shooting down of a passenger jet. First reports mentioned a drone was spotted in the vicinity during the shooting. It just so happens that an American drone( given to the Ukraine army) was captured earlier by the Pro Russian Army and therefore some seem to presume may have been used to take out this civilian passenger jet. Later reports now claim it is likely a missile system that did the deed. Bloomberg News news states that only Russia could have committed the deed as only they had the technology https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAQ6rHFsNI8 What about the US? Don't they too have this technology?

Here is France 24 news saying it has to be Russia too as only they have the technology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiAO3D_j8qk . I did note that he mentions near the end that Ukraine indeed has the same missile system too but that theirs has a different camouflage look to it ...

I have to ask myself why either Russia or the pro-Russians would do this.... they would only mark themselves in a poor light to the world. I also wonder who Russia is saying is responsible...obviously not themselves! I point this out so maybe everyone will contemplate on why Russia would even commit such an offense before you accept this as fact. Putin has put up with a lot of crap and played a good game with the hand he has been dealt so far. This also comes at a time when the US is being strongly criticized for their earlier support and training of ISIL(ISIS). The convenient fact that the enemy just so happened to capture a drone earlier and that Russia just signed a deal to allow world trade without the US currency might have something to do with it too. The US also imposed more strict sanctions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJepQIs6Tc on Russia yesterday that some European countries felt they couldn't impose as it would hurt their own economies too much.

But If Ukraine did it, what would they gain? Public favour could improve a little maybe if we believe that Russia is behind this, but that should be about all. I guess this would make folks better accept the continued shelling of cities in east Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljimucwbmho . Yet the timing couldn't have been better to get folks minds off the troubles in Iraq and maybe even have enough justification to finally back the Ukraine government by moving in and setting up shop when they just promised Russia that they wouldn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgbfB0zVj-M Guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
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prom
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby prom » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:25 am

Knuckle, you see conspiracy everywhere :) . There is no debate in my opinion on who did that? It was the russian separatists. They said it themselves through the tweet of their leader, Igor Girkin, right after they did it, by mistake most likely (big chance they were drunk :) ). At that point they thought they shot down another military ukrainian plane.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian ... lines-jet/
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:16 am

prom wrote:Knuckle, you see conspiracy everywhere :) . There is no debate in my opinion on who did that? It was the russian separatists. They said it themselves through the tweet of their leader, Igor Girkin, right after they did it, by mistake most likely (big chance they were drunk :) ). At that point they thought they shot down another military ukrainian plane.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian ... lines-jet/


It appears that you will accept their given story without asking the "Why " question. The McCain link already presents the suggestion of US deployment to the area to supposedly calm the dispute and yet know one even knows the real cause yet as to what brought the plane down. Yet we should know that Russia is only staying out of Ukraine as long as the UN will stay out too. The greatest threat any country can face is when the enemy sits on your doorstep ...but the US wants to do this and explains it's to bring peace to the region, right? The same way it did to Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan. Meanwhile Baden's son can frak the crap out of east Ukraine to get the needed gas for Europe....but wait, that might be a motive! And those folks who lived in east Ukraine shouldn't complain too much cause many who weren't killed have hopefully relocated after the bombings and such. McCain's idea is a bad one but they already are planting the seed so Obama can pretend that it wasn't his doing.

My main point is not to even consider that Russia is behind it unless we can at least see a clear motive. This is how propaganda manipulates the masses. Using a comment that some soldier makes as conclusive evidence that Russia is behind this is too convenient. Weigh all the evidence first!
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prom
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby prom » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:15 am

I did weigh all the evidence and I have very little doubt that it was the pro russian separatists that shot down the plane. And I didn't say russians or Russia, I said pro russian separatists. And I said WHY, it was most probably a mistake.

There is no propaganda here, only you see it. Not even Putin is not saying that it was the Ukrainian government. He only throws the blame on them for fighting the separatist movement. Another part of the puzzle is that the rebels have recently shot down military airplanes and helicopters so they were sort of in the mood of shooting down planes. Ukrainian military wasn't chasing airplanes as the separatists have none. There was another tweet from the separatists earlier showing a BUK missile system that they have captured from a Ukrainian base on the territory controlled by them.
There are also recordings of talks between separatists, discussing shooting down the plane, intercepted by ukrainian secret service.
I see facts and I put them together, you see only conspiracies and that it's clouding your judgement when it comes to this kind of issues.
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:50 pm

You opt for the accidental premise of some soldier aiming a guided missile at an overhead jet just to see if he could hit it. Most soldiers are aware that their actions still have to be answered to a higher power at a time when killing is simply an accepted form of punishment (meaning they too could pay such a price if deemed so). Those put in charge of a missile system are most likely trusted to perform their duties properly so as to avoid this kind of dilemma.

I do make note on how quickly the fingers are pointing to Putin and how an incident such as this puts folks back on the aggressors side to do more when they have already done too much. When folks turn their backs on such obvious coincidences such as Biden's son being elected to the board which will control the gas extraction from east Ukraine, one has to wonder what it takes to make they realize that their being played. When a war is being waged over a peace of land that just so happens to hold gas reserves, but that region has strong ties to Russia, somehow a civil war erupts with EU prodding. When I can find daily news that people are being systematically annihilated in east Ukraine and our western news states that Poroshenko is justified, I start doubting the legitimacy of the news agencies. And the fact that US immediately supported the new leader the day after the overthrow of the Ukrainian government showed their involvement from the start.

It is I who ask you why you cannot see past your flag waving, to who is the real promoter of this war? If you take a comment that flying over Ukraine airspace will be considered dangerous as an admission of guilt, then something more direct such as a retired US general publicly showing the US's war plan (which seems to be coming true) should be irrefutable evidence to even you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyEJ6Aja-UQ

I often wonder if others don't see the lack of organization of the rebel forces who stand against fascism in Ukraine. They obviously don't have the backing of Russia or they'd be better equipped to face the Ukraine armies. Sure some Russians who have military training sneek over to help the neighbours, but look at how unbalanced the playing field is compared to the EU's backing of the Ukraine army. It is the story of David and Goliath and yet our media wants us to cheer on Goliath. Why does our media not show the destruction of bombing east Ukraine or the Gaza strip? It seems they don't want our public support to consider the plight of these people, why? If we are to go to war, let it be for a just cause, not for lies!
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Goldie
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Goldie » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:40 am

prom wrote:I did weigh all the evidence and I have very little doubt that it was the pro russian separatists that shot down the plane. And I didn't say russians or Russia, I said pro russian separatists. And I said WHY, it was most probably a mistake.

.


My thoughts exactly .. the pro russians separatists made a booboo mistake thinking it was a Ukraine aircraft.
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Goldie
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Goldie » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:46 am

Do the pro russian separatist even " own " or " have " any such HUGE LARGE aircraft ? I will take a guess and say no.

So I can not see Ukraine shooting down that plane because they would not see it as their enemy ( the pro russian separatists )
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Knuckle
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby Knuckle » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:36 am

So you still think that the new Ukraine government is playing fair? Those who achieved a coup with fascist backing and much publicized killings of those who didn't even fight back until too late. The Ukraine government said they gave a 10 day cease fire when I showed evidence daily that they still bombarded the east. We also hear Obama state that Russia continues threats but we never get to hear what these threats are....why? Because the only threats that are being given are those given by our side. You show me one atrocity committed by the pro-Russians and I'll show you ten committed by the fascists and we'll see who runs out first.

You have now been fed the idea(by McCain) that US intervention is justified and will improve things. Deep down, you know this is a bad idea. But your government says it is good so it must be! Forget the facts that keep unfolding proving the CIA has created each of these type of events in the past to start every crisis that the US is presently involved in. Forget the fact that the only ones who seem to benefit from each of these events are the same folks who are in control of your military.

Do you not ever wonder why so many in the US military voted for Ron Paul when his first intentions were to bring his soldiers home? Why they'd all likely be out of a job, so why would they vote for Ron? :shock: Many of your soldiers don't seem to want to occupy countries and threaten civilians....but they can't return home just yet, can they? Why does it take an old soldier to not want to war against another while those with no service record promote war constantly?

But continue believing that this wasn't another staged event to get UN backing for intervention of Ukraine. This will escalate tensions with Russia who seems to be gathering support from both China and now maybe even India. Who do you think is really promoting confrontation? Russia has shown how much they don't wish to go to war by tolerating imposed rules that prevent Russia from supporting those in the east Ukraine while the US gets to openly back those in the west.....Imagine if these rolls were reversed? Would we tolerate such an open act of aggression occurring on our countries doorstep? And why do we have friends like Israel who are chomping at the bit to fight too. Why is it that we seem to be supporting the radicals and racists these days when we claim that we oppose all that they stand for!
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prom
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby prom » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:28 am

Knuckle wrote:You opt for the accidental premise of some soldier aiming a guided missile at an overhead jet just to see if he could hit it. Most soldiers are aware that their actions still have to be answered to a higher power at a time when killing is simply an accepted form of punishment (meaning they too could pay such a price if deemed so). Those put in charge of a missile system are most likely trusted to perform their duties properly so as to avoid this kind of dilemma.



It wasn't very often, thank god, but it did happen in the past :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ai ... _incidents


Korean Air Lines Flight 007
Main article: Korean Air Lines Flight 007
Korean Air Lines Flight 007, also known as KAL 007 or KE007, was a Korean Air Lines Boeing 747 civilian airliner shot down by a Soviet Su-15TM fighter on September 1, 1983, near Moneron Island just west of Sakhalin island. 269 passengers and crew, including US congressman Larry McDonald, were aboard KAL 007; there were no survivors. An official investigation concluded that the course deviation was likely caused by pilot error in configuring their air navigation system.[18]

Iran Air Flight 655
Main article: Iran Air Flight 655
Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655) was a commercial flight operated by Iran Air that flew from Bandar Abbas, Iran to Dubai, UAE. On July 3, 1988, towards the end of the Iran-Iraq War, the aircraft flying IR655 was shot down by the U.S. Navy Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes when it fired a SM-2MR surface-to-air missile. The airplane was destroyed between Bandar Abbas and Dubai, killing all 290 passengers and crew. It was later claimed by United States Government that USS Vincennes was in Iranian waters at the time of the attack, and IR655, an Airbus A300, was misidentified as an Iranian F-14.[21]

1993 Transair Georgian Airline Shootdowns
Main article: Transair Georgia airliner shootdowns
In September 1993, three airliners belonging to Transair Georgia were shot down by missiles and gunfire in Sukhumi, Abkhazia, Georgia.[23][24][25]

2001 Siberia Airlines Flight 1812
Main article: Siberia Airlines Flight 1812
On 4 October 2001, Tu-154 crashed over the Black Sea. The plane may have been hit by S-200 surface to air missile, fired from the Crimea peninsula during an exercise of Ukrainian military. All on board (66 passengers and 12 crew) were killed. Then President of Ukraine Leonid Kuchma and several high commanders of the military later expressed their condolences to the relatives of the victims.[27]
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prom
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Re: Malaysian Jet Shot Down Near Russian Border

Postby prom » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:53 am

Knuckle wrote:Do you not ever wonder why so many in the US military voted for Ron Paul when his first intentions were to bring his soldiers home? Why they'd all likely be out of a job, so why would they vote for Ron? :shock: Many of your soldiers don't seem to want to occupy countries and threaten civilians....but they can't return home just yet, can they? Why does it take an old soldier to not want to war against another while those with no service record promote war constantly?



Knuckle, please let's focus on the subject a little bit here. Ron Paul has nothing to do with the russian supported rebels shooting down that plane. Let's keep it on the subject. Let's concentrate on the direct facts. I know you feel like you have to promote your conspiracy theory agenda to the people and it looks like you're using every you opportunity you get but I have to get you back on the ground with some facts: conspiracy theory is what the name says, a theory, Putin is not the new Jesus, jews are not leading the world, and, to get back on the subject, separatist leader acknowledged shooting down a plane the same time the plane in discussion here was shot down
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