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Adjustable beam lasers

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Clarence
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Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Clarence » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:44 pm

An awesome tool I just purchased is an adjustable zoom green laser light. Go from small dot to wide beam that will easily light up a man 300 yards away. Nice bright circle around a person!

Besides the blinding capabilities in a self defence situation, it could send a real message to the person meaning you Ill will. Nothing like a green dot on or covering your entire chest To make you feel like your about to be in a world of pain

Green can be seen in the day and low light to no light conditions. Red is only good in the dark.

Use as flashlight or mount on rifle

Never experienced blue lasers. Anyone have input on that?
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Wayne
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Wayne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:43 pm

Laser Colour Benefits

Red: Aim point in lowlight conditions.
Green: Bright aim point in daylight and lowlight conditions.
Blue: Very bright aim point in daylight and lowlight condition. Extended battery time). Not as susceptible to cold temperatures.

Laser Colour Drawbacks

Red: Operational difficulty in daylight conditions.
Green: Operational difficulty in colder conditions. Visible beam trace if particulates are present in the air.
Blue: Visible beam trace if particulates are present in the air.

General Benefits

From a Shooter's perspective a Laser can be beneficial to control the tracking of angular deviation in handguns when used by inexperienced shooters.

Laser designed targets may also offset the cost of training using real ammunition.

General Drawbacks

The bullet only goes where the laser goes when the laser is properly zeroed at XYZ distance, the target is XYZ distance away, and all human and environmental error is eliminated (shooting indoors under perfect conditions). Because of this, lasers aren't used by any tactical team I'm aware of outside of indoor training scenarios.

The addition of a laser sight may restrict the style/type of holster that you can use.

While lasers may assist the shooter in some situations a laser will not assist in positive target identification (PTI). PTI is something that is totally paramount for both defensive and offensive shooting scenarios. Tactical members usually opt for a light on their handguns for this reason.

Laser application on automatic weapons or long guns isn't practical for tactical applications (outside of Hollywood)...
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helicopilot
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby helicopilot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:12 pm

Wayne,

What are your thoughts on lasers for handguns in self defense at home? You'd think it could offer some assistance when shooting behind cover/concealment or weak-hand?

I've seen Crimson Trace lasers where the advantage being that it requires no extra manipulation and there is no need to change holsters.
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Wayne
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Wayne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:20 pm

These may be a positive advantage for some shooters at short distance. They offer an off-hand advantage to shooters in low-light situations in-that they require a small sight target. Where the dot indicates is where the bullet will hit at short range. In a home invasion situation (for example) target identification may be less important. In a law enforcement situation however, this is of paramount importance as you may not have a way of distinguishing the good guys from the bad guys in 1/3 of a second.

A tactical team operates within the law. A survival situation may be outside any restraints. If you kill the wrong person, at least you live to tell the tale. My experience has required much more restraint and subsequently a higher threshold. A dot on the target is insufficient. If you want to clear a room, you use a grenade... :-)
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Clarence
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Clarence » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:37 am

As Wayne mentioned, average green lasers do not work well in cold temps. Even plus 3C I have had issues. Work fine at first and then zip.

Mil units are ok but one can’t obtain them and if you could they are expensive

WAyne: you mention a dot as being insufficient. Insufficient for what? I know one needs to be ready willing and able to pull the trigger, but if there’s one or more adversaries and your in a standoff situation, do you not agree that the physiological effect of a person being lit up is a deterrent? A person may think you won’t hit them, but if they see a dot on the center of their chest and you are not showing any signs of weakness, I think that is an added plus and may get them to back off or comply. Your Thoughts?
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Wayne
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Wayne » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:44 pm

Hi Clarence,

I'd frown upon the practice of looking at yourself in a tactical situation. Personally, I'm too consumed with looking for threats and being aware of my team members, so friendlies don't get shot.

We've all seen movies in Hollywood where the bad guy's chest is lit up with tiny dots and he drops his weapon. Like I said Hollywood. Any tactical team is only used as a last resort. When given a green light, the mission is to eliminate all threats without hesitation. Assaulters don't place beams of light on a person hoping that they will see it, recognise the hopelessness of their situation and drop their weapon. The Perp drops his weapon because he's been killed. If he isn't, the Shooter screwed-up. In a Tactical situation "Drop your gun or I'll shoot" is for the cameras and an audience.

If I saw a laser light, I'd take aim at it's source (beware of laser trace). What I'm afraid of is what I can't see. If I can see it, it can be engaged.

My recommendation is that no one touch a firearm unless they genuinely believe that their life or the life of another is in danger. If so, the intention is to eliminate the threat. If you reach for a firearm, you are preparing to kill another human being. Hesitation will get you or a loved one killed.

Police will pull a weapon, if the situation is unknown and a threat to personal safety is probable. When and when not to shoot is part of the training. Unfortunately, this is training which the average Prepper hasn't received.

The second part of this, is that people attempting to break into your home likely don't know that the home is occupied. You should always endeavor to find a way to indicate that it is. If they're trying to break in and are aware that you're home, they likely are willing to use violence. Predetermination of intent is critical. I don't know about you, but I really don't want to shoot anyone looking to feed their children by breaking into what they believe is an abandoned house...
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Clarence
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Clarence » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:36 pm

Wayne. Not sure what happened to my response to your last post but it’s not here.

Psyops is a very powerful tool and is used extensively. Hollywood and all the subliminal messages ( no I am not a tin foil hat type) people have been exposed to since birth can and does trigger reactions. An instructor from quantico once told me the sound of a pump shotguns action being worked sends a definite message. People have watched enough tv and movies to all know it’s sound. Same with lasers.

I like to combine both and will use whatever works that I have at my disposal. Untrained individuals useing iron sights with one eye closed will not be as situational aware as other more experienced types. If they had a tool that permits them to keep both eyes open while shaking with nerves and know that they are on target, that will help them. In addition to helping them, I believe it will also send a message to the bad guy. if it doesn’t, then the accountant will have to do what he is ready willing and able to do and that’s it. All one can do is recommend they be as prepared as possible and use what tricks they can to maybe tilt things in their favor. Pretending to be “tacti-cool “ is not what I am suggesting, as that only provides a false sense of confidence. But is is a tool that may “ help”.

A hostage negotiator, swat team, a snatch and grab op, undercover, police officer, soldier... all use what they have or are mandated to execute on.

I understand that certain trade craft tools or tactics take a long time to acquire and within strict limits, I hope to discuss some of them on this forum. All open source.

So, if the average civilian and that includes even low end criminals is attempting to liberate me from stuff or is a potential risk to my safety, I will use whatever works. People remember the scenes in movies where they get lit up and then are double tapped. If that light gets them to back off then maybe that’s what the average person would be happy with. I fully understand that if your mission is to terminate someone you execute that task without prejudice. If however, you are joe Q accountant, you may not be mentally prepared to do that right away. If there are two or more perps, you pick the leader and focus on him. Once he decides it’s in his interest to back off, his chump friends will likely follow. Not sayin that they won’t return, but assuming one is not ready to pull the trigger at that moment, they may be better tactically or mentally prepared for when and if they do return.
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Wayne
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Wayne » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:41 pm

Clarence,

Every situation must be assessed on its own merits. But if I was an assaulter and you clacked a shotgun; you've just given me much needed intelligence:

1. If I didn't know exactly where you were; you just told me.
2. You are armed with a loaded shotgun; you are now a threat which needs to be eliminated.
3. The effective range of your weapon is short with limited penetration ability.
4. You have one shell less in the weapon than if you had cleared it for action earlier.
5. You were unprepared 10 seconds ago (or now your weapon has one less shell because one was ejected).
6. If you believe that this is going to intimidate me, you may believe you have the upper hand.

On the other-hand:

1. You are unaware of what weapons I may have and their capability.
2. You may be unaware of my location and tactical advantage.

Your actions successfully communicated the threat you intended. Tipping your hand before you know if a threat exists and if it does, what that threat amounts to wouldn't be my choice of action.

Changing hats for a moment... If it was my desire to attack your location, I would do a recon first. I might come up to the door, listen to the clack of the shotgun or just watch the lights on my chest. Ask if you had a meal and then leave. I would have taken note of numbers, weapons, types of locks, cameras, dogs, physical structures, approach, etc. At my leisure, I could eliminate the occupants from a distance and remain unseen.

Personally, I don't foresee a remake of the battle at the O.K. Coral, where people are clacking shotguns and using laser scopes to scare one another. If it came down to it, this would be an improbable strategy. Anyone who knew what they were doing, that decided to take-out your location would just do so. The advantage in every case goes to the assaulter. Manning a defensive position in today's age is foolhardy in my opinion.
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Clarence
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Clarence » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 am

Wayne. Lots to unpack here. For one, 12 gauge is not my first choice for home defence. Also everything being discussed here about loaded firearms etc is all make believe. All laws will be respected and everyone’s human rights will be respected. Bad guys will not be shot but given milk and cookies with a warm hand in friendship.

1 let’s say you broke into my house and I confront you and you are 12 feet away.
2. Yes I am a threat and glad you got the message. Assuming you are armed, and make an offensive move and feel my life is in danger, i fire. If unarmed and I know there are no others, I then make executive decision on what to do with you.
3 12 gauge buckshot at 12 feet is effective and your down.
4 in an emergency situation, a weapon should be loaded to max and spare rounds readily available. No different than bad guy.
5 if I did have to load a round, you are correct, I have one less in the tube. not how I would operate but I am useing average citizen as examples here.
6. I wouldn’t and never count on the perp being intimidated. If it works, fine, if not and he make threatening move, he’s dead.

1.1 true. Until I see what you have or get a feel from your tactics and on how your movements could translate into what weaponry you may have, I am in the dark. Just like sizing up anyone’s movements, eye contact, how and what clothing is worn, muscle structure, voice, response to questions. You need to try and get a feel of your opponent.
2.2. Typically, I wouldn’t need to chamber a round in the dark and expose myself because it would already be chambered and I would make every effort to remain concealed until I know how many of you there are, locations and weaponry. But assuming that I needed to charge a weapon, I wouldn’t stand up and say hi. I would try and position myself so you would have to expose yourself to try and see me. Would also move away from where I was when I chambered a round so perp, if an amateur would move so they could shoot at old location.

Agree about need for good recon. It’s something people should learn how to do and not be detected, or in your test, ask for food and leave, appear mentally confused, lost....Now, an awake person would watch your eye and head movements, ask questions and be ready for your possible return hours to day or even weeks later. In disaster situation, I would expect you to make your move around 02:00 range or when I left the house to gather wood the next day. one must treat everyone as a potential threat. If not directly, but also from what they tell others, even if in an innocent conversation. Lesson for people is to never let a person into home, see or verbally reveal as little as possible / opsec

I can only speak for myself and I know you have a solid background in tactical maneuvers etc, so yes, you, me and many others know how to operate in this darker world and would have no difficulty liberating people from their food etc. sadly, many watch to much zombie type scenarios and think because they wear camouflage and shoot five rounds a year warming up for deer season, they are bad ass operators. Due to their slimy skill sets, A half decent criminal will defeat the majority of these folks and take their weapons. Due their usual sloppy behavior, they won’t clean it properly or load the clip properly and hopefully it jams on them when they pop over to the next place.

I don’t know why you say manning a defensive position in this age as foolhardy.? Almost everything we tend to discuss on these boards ,revolves around some very large disaster and survival conditions that would test the best of us. As we are not talking about a tiddlywink three day power outage in one city, but complete breakdown in what we call civilized life. I see a solid well stocked home, with land for food, with well laid out perimeter security and like minded folks as part of your team as being ones best option. As food will disappear in days to weeks, you will need to hunker down, 24/7 guard type duty, hot at all times and continually vigilant. After a few weeks of no food, there would be fewer bad guys but those still around will have honed their predatory skills. Hopefully, your team has had encounters as well and able to outlast bravo team

These are great discussions and I try and keep it as real as I can. I may not always put it down in writing the way I wish but I try. I have worked with average civilians as well as many specialists with diverse and very terminal skill sets. I know the tacti-cool types, good hearted but completely unprepared people as well as criminals from street slug to really bad people with skill sets like ours
Cheers.
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Wayne
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Re: Adjustable beam lasers

Postby Wayne » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:43 am

Ok Clarence, lets suppose....

In medieval times, Castles were sometimes successful against attack. This was until the enemy learned to put down the spear and pick-up a shovel to undermine the foundation.

After WW1, the tactical map changed. Since then, not one fortification has been held successfully against attack. A fortification's success is in its ability to delay the enemy. That's it.

In the situation you described:
1. If it was clear that you and your team wished to assault my family home, I'd offer to leave.
2. I would gain as much information that I could about your team and equipment.
3. Success; my family is alive and without injury (I don't want them in a gunfight).
4. I secure my war bag at night, from a location on my property. Now I'm the aggressor.
5. You would be eliminated one by one at distance. You wouldn't even hear the shot.
6. I clean up the mess and my family returns.

Your position would be fixed. Your weapons would be useless and I would have the advantage of surprise. Why would I want to duke it out with shotguns, handguns and rifles, knives? A guy could get hurt that way...

I think the day of defending the homestead from circling Indians is a thing of the past. A Prepper's advantage is in remoteness, keeping a low profile and appearing as needy as others. Large stashes of food and supplies should be stored out-of-sight.

Opposite to you, my home isn't a fortress with bars, cameras and dogs. Nothing whatsoever to indicate wealth. It will be these fortresses that will be the target of looters and I'm thankful for them...

Survival is about adapting. The key lies in expectation. I don't expect to live then, like I do now. Using things for a purpose for which they weren't designed will be the norm.

Keeping power to my security cameras is not a priority. Prepping to me is largely an attitude. I've survived on bugs, frogs and snakes. If required, I'm willing to live in a changed world and return to the earth.

Unlike you, I'd be happy to invite a group of potential looters into my home to share a cup of tea. One tea bag for every 10 cups (we have 3 bags left). Hell, lets use a fresh one; we have company! BTW Clarence, do you have any extra food?

The poor have nothing to fear from Robbers...
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