Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

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Entropy
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Entropy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:50 pm

Wayne wrote:

Another fact is that a well-trained group of assaulters would not have any difficulty breaching the defenses of any homestead. If they have any brains, they'll NOT "pick easier targets than us." If that wisdom was correct, there would be no bank robberies as it's easier to rob the corner store.

You pick targets with the biggest reward and where do you think that is? Bob's apartment or a homestead that has water, power and a year's worth of provisions?? The best reliable defense is secrecy and not in fortifying your homestead. Fortification will attract the element you hope to avoid (I really don't understand how so many Preppers don't get this).

the juice must be worth the squeeze, but there are many factors in this.

my place is the second last house on this road. the back way in isn't plough in winter, it's a hard and LONG hike to come up the back way on foot with snow.
but assuming they hit the BIGGER house they come to first, i'd hear it. i'd also have my MURS set up beyond their place to give me notice.if their place was assaulted, i'd be aggressively flanking the assault.
if they come from the easier direction, there are lots of houses before mine, and when they get to the last two, i'd not only hear them, but my MURS would also alert me from that direction. if they took the house from the back of the lake, they would have a back way to my place, and i'd make sure they never got that far…

assuming there was no one there to defend and they walked in and avoided my electronic eyes . . . there are three ways to get to my place. with fire positions set up in the barn, i'd have high ground and cover and concealment, able to cover the west, south west, east and northwest.

on the south side of my property i want to make a tree fort, free standing covered platform that could be lined with sand bags to give a firing position from the northeast to the southwest direction.

from my balcony i can hit southwest to east. there is a large open area that would be impossible to cross. coming up the lane would be suicide, and coming behind my house is the only safe way (but again only i know this) and can be made harder with fence/throwny plants and other interesting ideas to make you think twice.

so a well organized group of attackers would have only desperation and maybe numbers. they don't know where my electronic ears are ( MURS, chamberlains), they don't know i have night vision, IR lights, IR camera,, trip wires with lights (IR) or sound, and position that can be defended, i have kits for geo sensors that i need to get built, dogs. i have knowledge of the land and the foresight of how i'd have to attack the land, and what would stop me. fences and landscaping can make certain areas harder to access and can also lead people the way you want them, and who knows what might be between where you want to go and the seemingly easy way to get there. and the ability to take the first shot . . . . my goal is to make anyone think long and hard about trying to come closer.

area denial for people or vehicles isn't that hard, a saw, knife, axe, hammer/nails, shovel and barbed wire can do a lot, some dropped trees, foot tangles, holes, all make you think twice . . .

history shows that it takes a larger force to take over an area then it does to defend it. . . .


just some thoughts.


adsum. . . aut viam inveniam aut faciam

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Wayne
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Wayne » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:56 pm

Entropy,

A trained assault team taking a target in a SHTF scenario, would be a dire one. In many cases the power necessary for a fortified location to sustain electronic surveillance (power) would likely be limited. In any case, it would likely have been rendered useless before the assault.

I disagree with your last statement in that you need more people to attack a position than to defend it. At least this is my experience, having done so several times as a member of a police tactical team.

I believe a clear advantage lies with the Assaulter. The team can do surveillance, formulate a plan based on routine, select the optimal assault package and execute. This would likely be done at night; each team member being equipped with night-vision and thermal. It's likely that the defensive occupants aren't similarly equipped. It's also reasonable to assume that the occupants have little training in a tactical scenario and have little experience with concussion grenades.

The likelihood on an experienced team wanting to take your property is remote. However much that is done "to fortify" a homestead is for the false sense of security it gives the owner and doesn't have the value that the owner perceives it has. Unfortunately, feeling secure seldom equates to actually being secure.
None you improvise, one (or more) is luxury.

Entropy
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Entropy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:39 pm

history shows that sieges always need more then the defenders. a police take down of unskilled people is a much different situation, just like an SAS team taking down a group of terrorists. it's all based on threat assessment.

how are they going to render a hidden IR motion sensor or the receiver useless?
how are they going to interrupt my power supply when it's in the middle of my property and off grid?

how many trained assault teams will be wondering around butt *censored* I'm a potty mouth no where? the twin counties have 167K people, most being in cities, and massive farm land with armed farmers. there would have to be a massive team to even make it to make it to my place. if they lost 1 member for every 10 houses they hit, i'm no where near where any team would be starting. they would have no vehicles to get near me, and on foot they have no cover from the road. like i said, i'd know there were before they knew i was here.

i'm just saying i have more things working for me then i do against me. reality is, i'm the middle of no where, with all those systems on hand, and able to run them for years. a highly trained assault team is unlikely to be any where near me.
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Wayne
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Wayne » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:10 am

Entropy wrote: history shows that sieges always need more then the defenders. a police take down of unskilled people is a much different situation, just like an SAS team taking down a group of terrorists. it's all based on threat assessment.

how are they going to render a hidden IR motion sensor or the receiver useless?
how are they going to interrupt my power supply when it's in the middle of my property and off grid?
I wasn't speaking of a siege, but of an assault (although historically defence of a fixed position has always ended-up in failure in modern times). In a siege the occupants are well aware that a prolonged attack is underway.

In an assault, it should be over before the occupants are fully aware of the threat, or have little time to prepare for it. Historically, the German Blitzkrieg or lightning attack proved its value. It changed warfare forever (but I'm getting off topic)...

I would not classify drug labs, motorcycle gangs and paramilitary groups as unskilled. They often employ trained personnel for security and utilize the best electronic surveillance methods available. Cost is no object and explosives/booby-traps are often implemented into the defence along with back-up power sources. They're regularly overcome by small tactical teams.
Entropy wrote: how many trained assault teams will be wondering around butt *censored* I'm a potty mouth no where? ...a highly trained assault team is unlikely to be any where near me.
As I've previously mentioned, I agree. If however the chances are so slim, it begs the question: Why have you invested so much in fortifications "in butt-*censored* I'm a potty mouth nowhere," :-) to protect yourself from what you feel is a low-level or non-existent threat?

I've been involved in over 50 actual assaults and hundreds of simulations. We haven't lost anyone but have sustained some injuries in training (broken leg in a helicopter insertion, etc.). In over 90% of the cases, well trained and equipped defenders never even got a shot off.

My point is that most defensive methods are designed to protect people and property in a powered society. Police services are available and on-line. The visibility of fortifications acts as a deterrent to the criminal element.

In a power-out SHTF situation where people are desperate and the Police are off-line, the situation is radically changed. Fortifications attract the people they were intended to deter. It's a two-edged sword. I believe the best defense is to keep a low profile.

I'm not critical of your position. You've taken the steps that you've seen fit to take. Each of us strive to do likewise. There's no right or wrong, as we each live with the choices we make. Obviously some of us live in areas that are extremely remote; while others live in or near highly populated areas. No one knows where they will ultimately find themselves, should tragedy strike.

It seems that you have an ideal situation in-that you are remote and prepared. Unfortunately, not everyone is so self-sustained, off-grid and accomplished. Many of us will have to deal with the crowds of unprepared people.

In such a scenario, bristling your property with Keep Out or Guard Dog signs (dogs provide good warning, but are otherwise useless in an armed assault), barbed wire, surveillance cameras, or solar panels will likely not result in the desired outcome. It just shines a spotlight and emphasises 'What I have is valuable and I plan on keeping it.' A line drawn in the sand...

The more visibly prepared you are to defend yourself, the higher the likelihood that you'll need to. As I've said before, the poor (or seemingly poor) are never afraid of becoming the target of robbery...
Last edited by Wayne on Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Clarence
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Clarence » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:36 pm

Interesting opinions, experience and plans in this thread.

If in a remote location, I would keep as low a profile as possible, work with or know who amongst the locals I could perhaps trust.

Conceal as much stuff as possible, conceal counter measures and if you have the means, get some thermal equipment to test for any heat signatures from your electronic counter measures.

Have a number of ways out of your home so you can escape if needed/ tunnels.... triangulation lines of fire

Consider lines of sight, early warning systems, window placements and abality to move about inside without being seen from a person a hundred... feet away.

Wayne’s idea of playing docile and leaving, only to return and regain control is excellent but one best hope it’s not winter because a search party going after that first shot or two will likely prove a challenge to avoid. Not impossible against a small group but certainly something to consider.

Then there is how to deal with your suburban or rural type situation. You live in a house that one typically wishes to make nice and secure. Nice because you care about how you live,appearances and value of home and secure because we all know there are thieves looking for crime of opportunity. I like keeping my rural place nice and am continually adding to my creature comforts. Landscaping and lots of effort put into making it look nice does say some money and I do have countermeasures. I am not going to make my place look run down to avoid being a target.

In a shtf situation, I will need to rely on security, network of folks and other means to try and maintain my scalp. Once had a work related friend come out and they immediately noticed some of the layout in the property. Experienced folk (good and bad) will see this and per Wayne’s note, many in organized crime and other types, do have a military background and or previous bad experiences with professionals, so they know what to look for this time around.

It boils down to degree and duration of event, where you are or will be, how to get or remain there, money you have for all the plans and ideas you have and knowledge on how people react and how to try and manipulate or work with or against them.

Severity of the situation drives or impacts all your plans.

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Wayne
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Wayne » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:40 pm

Clarence wrote: ..Conceal as much stuff as possible, conceal counter measures and if you have the means, get some thermal equipment to test for any heat signatures from your electronic counter measures.

Have a number of ways out of your home so you can escape if needed/ tunnels.... triangulation lines of fire

Consider lines of sight, early warning systems, window placements and abality to move about inside without being seen from a person a hundred... feet away.
Good points Clarence.
Clarence wrote: Wayne’s idea of playing docile and leaving, only to return and regain control is excellent but one best hope it’s not winter because a search party going after that first shot or two will likely prove a challenge to avoid. Not impossible against a small group but certainly something to consider.
Yes, in this case numbers are everything. You might have to take them out 2 or 3 at a time, you may have to make more than one trip... :-)
Clarence wrote: I am not going to make my place look run down to avoid being a target.
I wouldn't suggest that you'd need to. Some basic rules to follow (in my view) are:

Don't flaunt what others need. Looking needy is better than looking prosperous.
Make sure that the property looks occupied. People will frequent unoccupied premises to loot.
Be friendly and greet others openly. Communication of what you don't have is important.
Hide anything of value/supplies. Where possible, only keep 24 hours of supplies available at any time (food, water, firewood, etc.)
If meat is visible I'd tell visitors that it's dog, rat, squirrel or grouse, but trapping hasn't been too good.
Keep as low of a profile that you can. Minimize smoke, light and sound; live under the radar.
Clarence wrote: It boils down to degree and duration of event, where you are or will be, how to get or remain there, money you have for all the plans and ideas you have and knowledge on how people react and how to try and manipulate or work with or against them.

Severity of the situation drives or impacts all your plans.
Well said.
None you improvise, one (or more) is luxury.

Clarence
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Clarence » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:40 am

Wayne wrote:
Clarence wrote: ..Conceal as much stuff as possible, conceal counter measures and if you have the means, get some thermal equipment to test for any heat signatures from your electronic counter measures.

Have a number of ways out of your home so you can escape if needed/ tunnels.... triangulation lines of fire

Consider lines of sight, early warning systems, window placements and abality to move about inside without being seen from a person a hundred... feet away.
Good points Clarence.
Clarence wrote: Wayne’s idea of playing docile and leaving, only to return and regain control is excellent but one best hope it’s not winter because a search party going after that first shot or two will likely prove a challenge to avoid. Not impossible against a small group but certainly something to consider.
Yes, in this case numbers are everything. You might have to take them out 2 or 3 at a time, you may have to make more than one trip... :-)
Clarence wrote: I am not going to make my place look run down to avoid being a target.
I wouldn't suggest that you'd need to. Some basic rules to follow (in my view) are:

Don't flaunt what others need. Looking needy is better than looking prosperous.
Make sure that the property looks occupied. People will frequent unoccupied premises to loot.
Be friendly and greet others openly. Communication of what you don't have is important.
Hide anything of value/supplies. Where possible, only keep 24 hours of supplies available at any time (food, water, firewood, etc.)
If meat is visible I'd tell visitors that it's dog, rat, squirrel or grouse, but trapping hasn't been too good.
Keep as low of a profile that you can. Minimize smoke, light and sound; live under the radar.
Clarence wrote: It boils down to degree and duration of event, where you are or will be, how to get or remain there, money you have for all the plans and ideas you have and knowledge on how people react and how to try and manipulate or work with or against them.

Severity of the situation drives or impacts all your plans.
Well said.
One issue
I wouldn't suggest that you'd need to. Some basic rules to follow (in my view) are:

Don't flaunt what others need. Looking needy is better than looking prosperous.
Make sure that the property looks occupied. People will frequent unoccupied premises to loot.
Be friendly and greet others openly. Communication of what you don't have is important.
Hide anything of value/supplies. Where possible, only keep 24 hours of supplies available at any time (food, water, firewood, etc.)
If meat is visible I'd tell visitors that it's dog, rat, squirrel or grouse, but trapping hasn't been too good.
Keep as low of a profile that you can. Minimize smoke, light and sound; live under the radar.




WAYNE:

I can’t hide my nice house and out buildings, so will need to play the recently down and out bad luck, we are all frigged by the man story line. Wear worn clothing or if you do have a nice shirt on, make it look like it’s from a bygone era. certainly agree with need to fit in with environment and have and can still do it. Very important that folks practice this skill set because it can be a real life saver. You look like some stuck up snob and your toast, play submissive to much and the same thing. Need to see who is who in the gang, big shot but no real power, quite one watching you, the hyper druggie or alcoholic, the pervert etc etc. A little humility, little bravado, playing confused..., need time (short) to figure out the players and still understand you may not have them truly figured out. Then think of how to work it. It’s a refined crap shoot.

As initial threats will likely come from local morons and thugs, it’s wise to know/ recognize who the immediate ones are, what they drive, who sits beside them in their pickup and parks in their yard. As out of towers move in, it will be more difficult. They will be more hardened, likely more desperate and harder to hoodwink. Plus side is they don’t know who your allies are or topography.

Lots of trade craft to try and get out in a short message but it’s important people understand how to play people in various circumstances. If one is an executive and never been in a snot hole bar, I would recommend they go with someone and get a bit of a taste. Go and chat with some moron in the hardware store and practice asking him questions on nails or joking about some politicians or hockey game. Anything for a non experienced person to get to know a bit about the other side of the track and what it feels like to be initially rebuffed yet eventually gain a bit of their confidence or attention. If you would never talk to that person in the isle, go do it!

Your 24 hour supply of visible goods is a wise practice. Moan and groan, plead, get mad.. at them taking it, seek their input on where you can perhaps get in on future takings...anything and everything to get them to ignore you as a threat or victim and move on, or in your case, allow them to move in while you move out to hidy hole. Play the confused fool it you think it will work. One has to look genuine or you will be detected as a fraud and then your in real pain.
If obvious, that you once had money, you can play the victim of some corporate pig who bankrupted your pension plan at the institute for the blind or some other form of employment that they may have sentiments for. Whatever lie you tell. You need to know some good backround on it, so if ever challenged with I know someone there... it’s plausible.
Try and stick to your real life as much as possible. It’s near impossible to reinvent yourself and not get tripped up.

Going to be impossible to hide solar panels and batteries so that’s a challenge for some. same for those with gardens or livestock. One will either need to have backups or be able to get that stuff back. Or fade away as you promote and hope to dispatch them before they kill those chickens for a meal.

One hell of a bloody mess when you boil it down.

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Wayne
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Wayne » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:45 pm

Clarence wrote: ...Going to be impossible to hide solar panels and batteries so that’s a challenge for some. same for those with gardens or livestock. One will either need to have backups or be able to get that stuff back. Or fade away as you promote and hope to dispatch them before they kill those chickens for a meal.

One hell of a bloody mess when you boil it down.
If the SHTF for real, there will be many people who live in nice houses, dress in expensive cloths and possess nice vehicles (that they have no gasoline to drive). These people will be destitute, have nothing to eat and be unprepared for the future. They will likely not be a target, as they have nothing that will further a person's survival. In fact, they are needy and may become dangerous and an element that we will have to deal with. You cannot judge who's needy by today's standards.

The wealthy are the ones with a source of heat, water, food and electrical power. Those who have these things will have to protect them. The easiest way is to possess a secure hidden location for these items out-of-sight of the needy.

Hiding resources can certainly be difficult. Solar panels can be mounted on the south side of a roof, the north side facing the road (visibly no solar panels). The planning process can start with the home purchase or how you want it built. Rocket stove type fireplaces can be built that will omit no smoke, yet provide an excellent heat source. etc. etc... Secrecy is a major factor to be considered. Having something and keeping it will not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

It seems reasonable to me that part of being prepared is not only acquiring key resources, but hiding them. I don't want anyone knowing where these are simply by coming into my home.

Hiding gardens on a larger property isn't difficult, It just requires more effort. In-fact some Meth Labs have been hidden in out-buildings in the trees where no one would think anything existed.
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Clarence
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Clarence » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:53 pm

Wayne, agree with what you say about meth lab. Pot growers are always screwing around the farms near me, hiding plots in the bush and along creeks. Never found any on my property.

So, given the fact we have snow for a good portion of the year, the issue of leaving even a small beaten down path to a cache in the woods etc, the likely best hidey holes are in out buildings and material for your 24 hour use theme is gathered each or every second night. This assuming a neighbour looking out their window on a 02:00 bathroom break doesn’t see you going back and forth every night.

I am a thousand feet off the road surrounded on three sides by bush and unless they start creeping around my place no neighbour will see me walk around but it’s something most people will need to consider. Cutting of firewood is another challenge that I think for my case will be near impossible to conceal. That said, there are forests all around me, so people will be simply trespassing and taking whatever down trees are available or cutting up new ones. Plenty of water around for folks to use. Biggest thing will be food, power and then people looking for tools and any other items of value. And yes, the lazy thug who simply wont go collect wood on their own but just wants to take yours!

I like your idea of little garden patches in the woods but that takes one away from homestead for extended periods of time and potentially leaves people without added help. A discrete method of alerting you would be advisable. This would also give one a chance to target the perps from outside while they are harassing ones wife or family member. Also a Potential hostage situation! One option would be for everyone to go care for garden together and not only do chores faster but offer mutual protection. Gaureented one will eventually bump into people in the woods! I have three neighbours who butt up against my property and gaureenteed two will be an issue. Then we have a little nearby development of 19 homes on tiny one acre lots who will be looking for firewood, meat... I am fortunate in having many large farms around us, but there are some City commuters who I already have had to chase off the property as they walk about on their nature and dog walking strolls.

But remote plots can’t be protected at night and as I already know I will have people wandering around picking up firewood etc, I would go for option of garden within sight, sound and counter measure range of house. If there is no dog, some good trip wire... devices would be handy.

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Wayne
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Re: Keeping the faith you'll find a working MAG

Post by Wayne » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:44 pm

Clarence wrote: Wayne, agree with what you say about meth lab. Pot growers are always screwing around the farms near me, hiding plots in the bush and along creeks. Never found any on my property.
We raided a huge drug lab (complete with security, surveillance systems and generators that had operated for five-years. It was in the centre of a cornfield on a large farm. amazing.
Clarence wrote: ...some good trip wires devices would be handy.
Yes, there're many ways to protect your position and/or your property. At some point in a SHTF situation, the gloves come off.

I truly hope that no one has to live through such times, but should this happen I'd want to be around to help my family (even if I was in a wheelchair at a bench making useful devices).
None you improvise, one (or more) is luxury.

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